This interview has been edited for brevity and clarity. See the full interview below.
Casey Kennedy is the founder of Hogan Land & Title, a premier real estate title abstracting and genealogy services company, and the Principal Attorney for The Law Offices of Casey E. Kennedy, LLC.
Casey is an alumnus of Duquesne University School of Law and graduated cum laude with a concentration in Energy & Environmental Law. She is passionate about solving heirs property issues in Appalachia and protecting land ownership in rural communities throughout the south. Before practicing law in West Virginia and South Carolina, Casey was an offshore fisherman in Kachemak Bay, Alaska and a specialized surface and subsurface title researcher.
When she is not working she can be found spending quality time with her adorable toddler, husband, 47 house plants, and two dogs. She’s a muralist, avid gardener and enjoys cycling and hiking.
This interview was recorded on January 27, 2021.
Resources:
- Hogan Land and Title: https://www.hoganlandandtitle.com/
- Hogan Land and Title Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hoganlandandtitle
- Hogan Land and Title Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hoganlandandtitle/
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Fiona Martin (FM):
Welcome CK to The Eco-Interviews. I'm so excited to have you. How are you doing today?
Casey Kennedy (CK):
I am great. And I'm really happy to be here. I've been looking forward to this a lot, Fiona.
FM:
Yeah. We've had some great conversations ourselves. And so I'm excited to dig in deeper to your story and find out more about you and the amazing work that you're doing. You're an attorney. We'll start with that, but please introduce yourself and a bit of your history and how you found yourself where you are today.
CK:
Well, I am the great-granddaughter of an immigrant and the granddaughter of a West Virginia coal miner, grew up in West Virginia. And after graduating with my bachelor's, I just sort of fell backwards into working for the natural gas industry. In West Virginia, also known as America's third world, you work for an energy producer of some kind, or you basically bag groceries. You don't have much of an option. So I just took a job and ended up being pretty good at some very specific tasks related to title searching. Did that for several more years throughout the Marcellus and Utica shale. And then that led me to law school at Duquesne University in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. From there, I loved law school and I could talk about that for a whole episode, but from there I was recruited by one of the largest firms in Appalachia to essentially be a corporate transactions attorney. I think I was being groomed more or less to do a lot of, I was going to do a lot of pipeline work. I became oddly well-versed in easement law, but then I only lasted about six months there.
FM:
What was the catalyst that said, I can't do this work after six months?
CK:
There were several factors, but I think it was mostly a crisis of conscious to some extent. I liked the work. The environment wasn't a good fit for me. But then I started realizing that people were being taken advantage of just generally in all different kinds of ways, just because another group of people were what I like to say "in the know". They just happen to have attorneys, they just happen to have a ton of funding. They just happen to have a bunch of experience in this realm.
And I knew that wasn't going to work for me long-term at all. I could get on board with sustainable development. I know that we can't turn the switch on fossil fuels. We can't just shut down the whole fossil fuel world. I know that we have to ease our way out of it ideally as fast as we can, but it can't be done overnight. And so I have always been a supporter of some type of sustainable development, whether that be to be a pipeline company getting a solar division and using their knowledge and right of ways and everything to have a solar distribution, but long story short, it just wasn't a good fit.
FM:
What'd you end up doing after leaving the energy sector as a corporate lawyer?
CK:
Well, I went back to abstracting pretty much immediately. That was available to me. And I got on a really good project just to kind of keep going. And then that led to me starting Hogan Land and Title in 2018, the summer of 2018. And I was working for a solo. I was looking for a solo practitioner in West Virginia, and I was in this unique opportunity that I was still in the same town as my old big firm, but I had really only worked on a few big clients' projects. So that left several opportunities for me to represent landowners in negotiations with other natural gas and coal developers. So I did that for a while and we decided to move to South Carolina. My sister's here in Columbia and I decided to kind of pivot away from energy generally. It's always going to be my background, but all of those skills were transferable to other real estate and title issues.
So 2019, I started focusing a lot of real estate closings and then 2020 was a complete dumpster fire. But I think it led me to understanding that heirs' property is not only a bigger issue than what I had identified it as in West Virginia, which we never called it heirs' property in West Virginia, but it's a little bit more universal than I had realized. And there's a name for it. And there's a practice for essentially what I was doing. And so I kind of thought about going nonprofit route and I realized that I have no background in that and I am not prepared for everything that entails. I've never written a grant in my life. So I decided to hang my own shingle and try to go about it from a for-profit aspect.
FM:
Nice. Yeah. We've spoken to Jennie Stephens from the Center for Heirs' Property Preservation down here in South Carolina, but you mentioned you encountered it in West Virginia. So can you tell us a little bit about what heirs property is and what you experienced in West Virginia and maybe what you're experiencing in South Carolina? If that's the same or different?
CK:
Okay. So I always want to say that anytime land theft comes up, I want to say first and foremost, we are all already on stolen land. I don't ever want to like discredit that that is actually the reality. But apart from that, anyway, in West Virginia, so heirs property generally is property that has been passed down through generations of folks not having wills. So there might be a common ancestor who had a farm of, let's say a hundred acres. They had a hundred percent interest and ownership over that farm. In West Virginia, they might've had not only the surface rights, but all the mineral rights. Well, generation after generation dies without a will. And so the property then passes by the laws of intestate succession, which are, this is a side note, are different in different states at different times because their statute, very little common law influence.
So over the generations, the property interest gets divided and divided and divided. Everyone over here is a little piece. Everyone over here is a little bit more. And now you might be there later with 64 people, sometimes it's only a handful. Those are the good cases. Sometimes it's dozens. Sometimes it's thousands, depending on how long this has been a problem, but you're stuck with an asset that without an agreement between all the heirs or without something happening you can't do much with. And in West Virginia, that is really common because of our economy and our history, the poverty. A lot of folks don't stay in West Virginia. So you have a lot of absentee landowners.
So you might live on your grandfather's farm, but all the other interest owners are all over the country and you've never met them. So what energy companies specifically, but not just energy, investors, developers of all kinds, will do is they'll find those issues, whether it's something that's going to tax sale, because someone's not paying taxes for something they don't even know, they own, whatever the case may be, or they'll get enough heirs to sign over their interests that now they're an interest holder and can force the partition on the other interest holders.
So it's very similar to here. It's just there's like the, the mineral aspect. And it's less of a racial issue in West Virginia, even though it's a racial issue sometimes too. It's more of a poverty issue and more of families for generations not having access to appropriate, good counsel or not knowing that in West Virginia, there's something wrong with your tax assessment, the state legislature has put it on you to fix. It could have been an assessor's heir. It could have been anything. It's on you to fix it. And if you don't fix it and it's sold at tax sale because it was under the wrong name or described the wrong way, tough luck. So a lot of people don't realize that. They think, "How could that be the case? You can't steal my property."
Well, if you don't keep an eye on it, unfortunately, sometimes that's how it goes. So that's a little bit of the difference. Here in South Carolina and throughout the South, it's a little bit more pointed of an issue because it involves so much of the region's history and racial inequality. And quite frankly, some of the stories I've heard down here are so egregious, they amount to, I think, civil rights issues and as well as environmental justice issues. But heirs property exists in urban areas too. I know I need to look this up. There's a, I can't remember the name of the organization, but there's one in Philadelphia that has identified tons of heirs property in the city limits of Philadelphia. So it's really kind of a nationwide problem.
FM:
Yeah. It just shows how people can be dispossessed in such an unfair way, as you mentioned. People who can afford the council, who have the foresight to know that this is something they can be doing are just in such a better position than people who just aren't even aware.
CK:
I mean, something as simple as having good records, I mean, how often is it that you see family records being preserved through multiple generations? It's just unheard of. And then a lot of times in Appalachia, you're dealing with three generations ago everyone was illiterate, three, four generations ago. And I know it's the same for black people in the South. Maybe the first landowners during Reconstruction, they might've been illiterate. So how can you expect generations of people descended from someone who couldn't even sign their name to have good legal records. It's just kind of crazy.
FM:
Yeah. Yeah. And it happens across the world. It makes me think of my great-grandfather in Ireland who signed the church register with an X. You know, he didn't have the ability either. And, oh goodness. So you have unique skills, as you've mentioned, very well versed in title search and ancestry and that sort of thing. So let's talk about either a specific case or an imaginary case of how you would come into a situation like this, of someone potentially being dispossessed and being able to resolve that in a favorable way for all parties, well, the parties involved.
CK:
One of the best outcomes I've had was amazing. I say amazing, not because of what I did, but it just it's just an incredible, you can't believe it happened. There was a farm in West Virginia, owned by, it was a couple of siblings back in the early 1900s. And that farm due to mineral exploration became really valuable in this in particular. And cut forward several generations, my client reached out, she'd reached out to a couple attorneys in West Virginia and they all kick, they definitely all get referred to me cause I'm the only one who even deal with it, but she was getting, so she owned a big portion of the remaining interest. There were other relatives and other companies that had purchased from relatives, but she had a good solid, I want to say quarter and eighth, something like that.
But she was getting tax sale notices that her cousins, who shouldn't even own anything, shouldn't have even had an interest, were losing their interest, which was actually her interest, at a tax sale because they weren't paying the taxes on it. So she reaches out to me. We do a title search, and unfortunately it was interrupted by COVID. Cause when I do a title search for these situations, I like to go back as far as you can, but in this, we got it back at least to the family. We could take it forward from the family and the county had their records wrong. The county had the records wrong because at some point the cousins had probably been approached by, it looked like an oil and gas company because the document was drafted by a producer in West Virginia.
And they were asked to write and sign an affidavit of heirship and in their affidavit of heirship, which is how they describe the property descending through their family over the years, they claimed that two or three of their ancestors did not have wills, but they did. So the county assessor just took that document for what it was, gave these cousins an eighth each or whatever it was. And they weren't paying taxes on any more because that's what happens a lot is people can pay taxes on their property when it's producing. But if you have a dry spell or the well dries up, or they close the well, whatever, or they can't get it to market, people stop paying taxes and then they lose it. Well, because of COVID we were running really close on the redemption period.
I tried negotiating with the person who had purchased the other shares at tax sale. I said look, if you want to go through with this, we'll buy them off of you for what you've spent. That didn't work. So what we ended up having our client do is redeeming property that, so she had to pay thousands of dollars for property taxes that shouldn't have even existed. She had been paying hers all along. It was all fine. She paid those thousands of dollars. She had to pay me to examine the title and write a title opinion to the assessor. But at the end of the day, we were able to set the record straight. So now she is properly assessed for exactly what she owns. The record is clear. She even, we even wrote a deed going from her to herself and her husband to just like put the, like just the little extra umph to the assessor.
This is the actual true title to this property. This is where it should be held. This is how it should be held. And we were able to get her a resolution that way. But you know you have to understand that her being even able to do that is a privilege. And having connected with me, and it was, it's a happy story. But it was thousands of dollars that shouldn't have been spent, shouldn't have had to be spent anyway.
FM:
No. That's horrendous.
CK:
But you can see how the poverty aspect, what can you do?
FM:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Poverty is beyond. It's more expensive to be poor than rich that's for sure. I know you mentioned one time that you came across a time where the records were possibly burned by the KKK. That's another aspect of losing records, even if you do it the right way. So can you tell us about that?
CK:
Yeah. Even if you've had, we were, I was looking at a property. This one was in Alabama and courthouse fires happen throughout, old buildings burn. That happens and you lose records. And I think the counties usually do the best that they can to fix that issue. But this one in particular, there was a gap in the chain of title and the owner would have probably died sometime in the twenties or thirties. And that's when his estate would have been probated. But that courthouse, according to the records, burned, was burned down by the KKK sometime I want to say, I think it was, I think it might've been the thirties.
And a good chunk of their records were lost. So if you can't, so if your family didn't keep a copy of the original deed, and now it doesn't exist in the county courthouse, what do you do? And in this circumstance, they had a surveyor come out and people were able to just claim. They would say, Oh, this is my farm. Yeah. This is my farm from this fence to that oak. And that's my back 40. And that's what they had to go on because there was no other way to determine who owned what. And as you can imagine, that left opportunity for all kinds of dishonesty.
FM:
Yeah. It really, so it sort of makes me think about our whole concept of land ownership. It's something within our culture that just seems to be so concrete. You know, this is my land. We have property rights. In fact, so much of our Constitution and our laws and law enforcement is based on property rights and defense of property rights. But I mean, when you think about it in a more natural way, and I talked about this with David Harper on an interview, people, kids running around property rights mean nothing. You know, you run through the woods, you don't know what imaginary lines you're crossing, but then beyond thinking about that in an organic sense, what you're talking about shows that even in a legal sense, it can be...
CK:
It's fragile. And the thing is too, most county clerks, and I will never talk bad on county clerks or assessors or any of those folks, but the truth is they're not attorneys. So when a document comes across them, they have no, I mean, some counties do a fantastic job, but there's really no way for them to interpret something written by an attorney maybe necessarily in the most direct way. And so not only that, but ultimately most of them are just paper until the past 10, 20 years. You're looking at paper books in a very specific basically type of library. Like that's fragile. And when you don't have, or you don't have records... Exactly. What is it?
FM:
And that's how your business was directly affected with COVID. Right? Is that you weren't able to go in and look at these records. Yeah?
CK:
Yeah. Exactly. And that so much of our research requires in person being able to access going, just going into the deed room into just like a library and not having any access made it almost impossible to do our jobs. And then if you've been in an area for a while, you might have, if you're an abstracter or an attorney, you might have a relationship with the clerks and can get in earlier and more frequently than outsiders could. So it's definitely been a learning process and a struggle, but I think by the end of the year, we had it figured out.
FM:
So part of your mission is really an environmental and a sustainable one. In fact, I think you even have experience as an offshore fishermen. Correct?
CK:
Yes.
FM:
We missed that. That's an exciting, tell us about that.
CK:
Oh. That was amazing. So when I, it was right around like my senior year of high school, freshman and sophomore years of college, every summer and every break I got, I was in south central Alaska on the Kenai peninsula fishing for sockeye salmon and Kachemak Bay. And it was absolutely incredible experience. I think everyone needs to go to Alaska because you get to see firsthand what our environment, what our communities can be and how you can have such a, you can have a positive relationship with your environment. Economy and sustainability are not mutually exclusive. You can have both. And the other thing is just how pristine so much of Alaska still is, to experience that firsthand was so valuable to me. And it was just, that's just, it was wild, amazing experience.
FM:
Yeah. I've never, ever been to Alaska, but I believe we have, in the United States, something like 15% of our land is held in trust as wilderness. And like 80% of that wilderness is in Alaska and us living on the east coast, if you look around, we have very little like actually officially deemed wilderness. Like we just don't have anything protected. And so this again goes into like, how does property rights play into our relationship with the environment and how is the field you're working in uniquely positioned to help with environmental goals that people may have.
CK:
The way I see it is that the more diverse land ownership you have, the better, particularly with small farms. Most small farmers have a small, if any negative environmental impact. Most of the time they use sustainable methods, they have a low carbon use. Most of your small farmers are now organic farmers or could be if they wanted to. So I think that the more different kinds of land use and the more we can support people who want to use their land sustainably, whether you that could even just be a Christmas tree farm, it can be anything they can do with this land can help us in a holistic way start to get closer to a more sustainable culture. So I approach it as you know, it like my ideal client is someone with an heirs property issue who wants to farm their family land.
And they let's say they want to have a hemp farm, or I can help them navigate that and move forward. Lawyers generally though, there's a lot of other ways lawyers can help. One is writing wills. That seems so unrelated to the environment. Right? But if your whole family has a will, everyone writes a will. I can't underscore that enough. Then land that you have invested in and your family has invested in, and let's say your trees are perfect. Like you've reforested part of your property or anything. Having wills keeps it safe for generations to come. It helps you create wealth in generations to come and having a more diversified wealth in our country in general is going to help. It's going to put money into the hands of people with different ways of approaching how we treat our environment.
So I think that's a big one. The other thing is climate justice and environmental justice. These are complicated issues historically to try and really dive into, but anyone who's a lawyer who has a background in that will, if they can help solve problems for their clients, that in effect might help keep some of the, again, balance of power in how land is used, but also how land gets cleaned up, like how neighborhoods can plant a few extra trees in a vacant lot because now we know who owns it. Or now they can turn it into a park. Or it just creates more opportunity, I guess I should say, in how to use land. And then I think another way attorneys can help is just being mindful of these issues of land theft, and heirs' property problems. If you are part of a machine that is taking advantage of these circumstances and be mindful if maybe there's a better way to do it.
And I think if we have just people aware of this issue, which I do think is happening generally. I think there is a growing awareness in our society of these issues, or maybe it's cause I'm so into it that I'm always looking for it so I'm always finding it. But I do think it's coming to a little bit of the forefront in as part of a civil rights movement. So I think, yeah.
FM:
Yeah. No. That's great.
CK:
Oh. Sorry. But what it comes down to for me is that a legal education is an immense privilege and a license to practice law is an immense privilege. And with that privilege comes a duty to do something to better your society and ideally support your environment and be a good steward of the land that we have. And any one of those ways can help achieve, even if it's just inch by inch, closer to diverse land ownership, wealth distribution, and sustainability.
FM:
I love it. Those are great themes to think about. It makes, land ownership as much as I feel like it's like unnatural at the same time, like you said, putting the power to the people who are there, especially if it's generationally, I feel like when you have a relationship with the land, a right relationship, you're not going to...
CK:
You're not going to pave it.
FM:
Yeah. You're not going to pave it. You're not going to like strip mine it. It's just so much easier for developers or energy companies or whatever extractive industry to do something with something over there. Right? You don't have the CEO of the oil company with an oil rig in his backyard and that's on purpose. Right? They wouldn't live next to it. They put it somewhere else. And I think we just need to understand that and have that right relationship with the lands and then support those people who have that right relationship, which sounds like what you're doing and the great work that you and other attorneys in this space are doing.
CK:
I hope so. I would love to see, I was thinking about this last night. I would love to see a network. I mean, there's already organizations, but I don't think there's any one way to solve some of these issues or address them, maybe not solve them, but address them. I would love to see a network throughout the, definitely throughout the South and in Appalachia, of attorneys trying to get through this together. That I haven't, I've been in some webinars, and I realize there's people doing a little bit of this everywhere, but it's like to have, I was thinking about that last night how neat that would be.
FM:
Would that be a future goal for the law offices of Casey E. Kennedy? Or what's the future for Casey E. Kennedy?
CK:
Maybe. Right now it's to make a living, to earn a living and get over 2020. No. But I would also like to, I think I'd be really interested in some consulting work where my... Hogan Land can continue doing the research aspect and we can help attorneys throughout the South and Appalachia get a nice package of information that they need to move forward and help their clients in whatever way necessary. And that might be to help other nonprofits or to help nonprofits or help other organizations or help other law firms. But then for my law practice, I want to continue to do a lot of what I do.
And I generally help heirs who have collectively decided they want to sell the property. That I can help clean up their title and help get them to closing cause it's usually pretty complicated. It's never straightforward. And then you're dividing proceeds to a lot of people, things like that. So that's kind of what my practice is right now, but I would love to see becoming a little bit more of a consultant. And that way I can, you know, they're not my clients that I take on, but I can help other attorneys and other abstracting companies learn how to tackle these problems in different states.
FM:
Mm-hmm (affirmative) And there seems to be a growing awareness with some landowners that they want to pass on their land to, if it's not to the children, but to something that's doing good work, land trusts or up and coming young organic regenerative farmers. Do you get into those sort of networks? And how do people like basically do that?
CK:
Well, so I've actually been talking to several land trusts and I think right now the land trust model and this isn't, I'm not speaking for all land trusts, but they are great options if the land owner is already wealthy. So you can get a big nice big tax write off. And I think that's fantastic. But when you have someone who isn't independently wealthy, who just wants to do something, wants to pass on their land to a good organization or the right buyer, or even the right kind of developer, I think that is going to be controlled through transactions. And I'm not sure how else, other than getting that would be a network of essentially it'd be realtors who are eco minded, who are environmentally minded, who know, who can pair up the right people for the right purchase and sale. And then having attorneys who if there could be a conservation easement take care of that in the closing, something like that. So I'm not sure.
FM:
Yeah. It's interesting. And you mentioned you had experience in pipelines and Keystone XL pipeline was just canceled by our new president, Joe Biden. Do you have any thoughts on that?
CK:
I have none. The Keystone pipeline is, to me, one of those strange things that has become very politicized, but at its core isn't really a necessary utility. So if you just break it down and if you don't think about the impact that a pipeline, just ignore that if you can, but the Keystone isn't really critical to the natural gas or oil infrastructure in the United States. And I'm not sure how it became such a strong issue. I don't even know why it was going to be made in the first place. It doesn't really make sense. So it's almost, it's almost like a power struggle that I don't have any understanding of. So I don't have much to comment, but I do know that it seems the weirdest one to pick a fight over, I mean, to pick a fight over from both sides, particularly the developer side.
FM:
Yeah. The pipeline stuff is interesting and it definitely came to the forefront with Keystone and then DAPL as well with Standing Rock. And I don't know anything about pipelines and just reading it and it doesn't take a lot of reading to scratch below the surface and really wonder why there's this push for pipelines when they're so prone to leaking and these arguments of bringing jobs are temporary, you know, temporary not migrant workers, but like journeyman and just, it's like, I don't know if anyone's listening to this. I just encourage them to look into why we are now, like trying to convert tar sands to some sort of energy source. They're so incredibly detrimental to the environment. It's not easy. It's expensive. It's dirty. It's really wrecking Alberta.
CK:
There's other ways to supply energy to the people of the United States. I don't know why that is such a, that's the one they chose, but...
FM:
It's just a lot of money. I mean, I don't fully understand financial markets, but my understanding is the oil companies have to put out their 20 year projections to get the investment. And if they can't show they have something to drill within 20 years, then nobody's going to invest. And so they're just looking for sketchier and sketchier ways of getting stuff out of the ground that should stay in it. And that's why we have fracking. And that's why we had like Deep Water Horizon. That was a super deep, super deep drilling in the Gulf of Mexico that went incredibly wrong. And anyone who looked at it could probably predict it would have gone wrong and seeing as it was so sketchy. And I think we just all need, so when I see the pipelines like getting shut down and no go is, is exciting because there's no, literally like very little argument in favor of them and they shut down a pipeline going through Appalachia recently as well.
CK:
Yes. They did. I actually haven't thought about it in a while, but I did read a little bit more about that. That one was so dangerous, not just in terms of like if it leaked, it was in terms of cutting it through the mountains. It was crazy. And so I don't think there was any way, honestly, I don't even think that pipeline could have gotten built. I really, my husband was, he was actually a pipeline laborer. When they told, I remember seeing that... Oh. It was a publication and they were all the projected pipelines and I thought, there's no way. You can barely drive through those mountains. You think you're going to drill or dig through, cut a right of way and install a pipeline through there. I can't imagine it. So I was pretty happy about that one not going through.
FM:
Oh. Yeah. I don't like it. I mean, this has been a great conversation, Casey. I'm excited to follow what you do and the great work that you're doing for people resolving title and trying to, I do think many of us are motivated to try and leave the world a better place than what we found it in. And our generation has been hit by recessions and environmental issues and a fricking pandemic. Like we have been hit with a lot. And so a lot of us are motivated to like, enough with the business as usual, we need to do something better. And so it's been fantastic to highlight what attorneys can do and what an attorney in your field can do for issues that a lot of us just have not encountered or even thought of.
CK:
Yeah. I don't even think when anyone thinks about climate, just the last thing they think about is a real estate closing. You know, the last thing you're going to think about is title. And it's one of the things I try to underscore where it's title is actually really important. Title is kind of critical to what you're doing. So it's important that it's done well. It's important that it's done by people with integrity and it's important that people maybe become a little bit more conversational on it.
FM:
Yeah. Awesome.
CK:
I think so. I joke, you saying we've been through so much. I joke that us elder millennials could, a vortex could just open like a portal to another world could open in my office. I'd be like, Oh, okay. That's here now.
FM:
Exactly. Resilience or flexibility or whatever you want to call it. I mean, we just keep getting hit with it.
CK:
Yeah. And I think as long as we keep, you can keep doing a lot of business as usual, if you just stay mindful about the consequences of what you're contributing to.
FM:
Oh. I love that. So how can we follow you and Casey E. Kennedy or Hogan Land and Title?
How can people get in touch?
CK:
Well, we got HoganLandandTitle.com That's and spelled out. CaseyKennedyLaw.com will be coming online shortly. And then we're on Facebook and Instagram as well. Instagram, I think we're Hogan Land and we're just @hoganlandandtitle . Law firm is not very yet, but we will be and on LinkedIn and hopefully get to tell more stories soon. That's what I would like to do.
FM:
Yeah. Definitely. We'll be here to hear your stories for sure. So thank you so much for being with us. We'll link to all of that in the show notes for anyone who wants to catch up with Casey and thank you for the great work you do, and then being with us today.
CK:
Thank you very much, Fiona.
FM:
Thank you.